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63VDub
05-14-2010, 04:45 PM
Went to the Post Office the other day to get a package. It was from Cliff Burger, otherwise known as cs900 over on PBN. About a month ago, I sent him a similar box, some drawings and a lot of "you'll understand what I mean when you have it in your hands." Contents of the box included the Defiant body I had sent him, my forward ASA, a Promaster frame and several bits and pieces. Now, the Defiant, in it's stock configuration, is a stacked tube, ram driven poppet valve design exactly like a B2k. Old Imps, Timmies, Egos, Cyborgs, etc etc all use the same operating design. Works great, but there are some draw backs when you compare it to other styles of markers. Since the ram and hammer are tied together, the effective reciprocating mass is higher than some cockers, the Excal, and most spoolies. The stock tray/frame combination made it taller than most ranch style houses. The stock electronics were adequate, but the wiring was about as substantial as a spiderweb. Not to say that everything sucked. It's a proven platform, that's why so many markers are based on that design. the borg started out as an improved ram for the b2k. The system is fast. Mechanically, I don't think 50 cps is out of the question, but the solenoid limits you to about 36. BooHoo.... Properly tuned, a B2k will get better than 1100 shots off a 68/45.
But enough of my justifications. What led me to imagine this project was the first time I played with an Excalibur. OMG, it was like an extension of my mind. Buttery smooth, great efficiency, point, click, eliminate. That was four years ago. I immediately set out to design a marker that did everything I love about the B2k, with the added benefits of the Excal, but maintaining the sleek, sexy ICD packaging. I taught myself CAD, with a lot of help from Spitlebug since I knew screwing up a design on a computer cost less money and time that pooching it on a mill. Discussion of this design grew to epic proportions on ICDO as various people put in their two cents and some even tried to give it a go. Nothing ever materialized. I got hung up on how to run two rams without having the body look like total butt. While I ruminated on that, I changed jobs (several times), moved (three times), suffered a catastrophic hard drive failure (no backup) and lived life. Then the MQ valve came out, and my thinking changed. Then the MQ died, and lived again and died once more. But, the seeds of inspiration were planted. Designs changed, parts were purchased and money was hoarded. Okay, money wasn't hoarded. I'm a paintball guy and I like markers. We'll just say that money was always in motion as various nice markers came and went from my house. Finally I had everything the way I wanted it on paper and most of the parts I needed. Guess what, alot of machinists aren't good communicators. Quite a few of the rest that can reply to emails have backlogs. But I found one that had an opening, replied to emails and knew what I wanted done. Off went the box and in about a month, fully a month BEFORE deadline, I got my stuff back. And now for the pictures:

Stock Defiant body, nekkid:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075541.jpg
Forward ASA:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075625.jpg
Bare Promaster frame:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075906_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
Promaster Frame Clearance for the ASA:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075936_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
Cut for membrane pad. This deserves a little explanation, Cliff recognized that the depression I wanted to keep me from accidentally turning things off or on was going to make the back wall paper thin. So, after a little discussion with me running in small little circles pulling out my hair, Cliff suggested fabbing an insert for the pad that the frame would clamp in place when assembled. As so we went with that. looks good and does the job nicely without intruding into the grip.:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075916_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
VW norise neck:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075752.jpg
MAC ram:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075642.jpg
PPS Regs:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08075730.jpg
Universal T-Board:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080429_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
MQ Valve:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080720_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
Now for the really cool stuff:
Brass Valve spacer. Cliff fixed my dimensions, oring gland sizing, and chamfering. Hmm, come to think of it, the only thing I had right on that drawing was that it needed to be a hollow cylinder, the rest he did:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080540_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
Bolt:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080602_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
Body cuts. the bottom of the lower tube had to go, and I needed two holes drilled and tapped for barbs in the top tube. I needed the LP passage tapped for a barb (I dinked the measurements for that, too. Yet another thing Cliff fixed) The lower tube needed tapped for a Cocker IVG to hold the MQ. The top tube needed tapped for the ram:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080815_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08080804_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg


Start to finish, it took about four weeks once Cliff got started, counting all the time he was waiting for me to reply when I had screwed up. I emailed cs900 the first time Feb 9. I mailed my parts to him along with an initial payment Mar 22 (my delay, not his). He told me that he had "a few jobs in line ahead of me" once he got my package. Major groan, D-Day starts in early June, and I was hoping to use it there. We all know what a few jobs ends up being. Imagine my suprise when I got an email 4 days later saying he was starting my spacer. I can imagine what he was thinking when he realized that almost ALL the dimensions weren't correct on the spacer. According to my gmail, we exchanged 63 emails in the span of the project, and they were all productive updates or important questions about what exactly I wanted done. This is what I ended up with:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/63VDub/Andruil/2010-05-08082528_MtIda_Arkansas_US.jpg

If you ever need any mill/fab work done, Cliff Burger is the guy. cs900 on PBN and pbmetalmods @ gmail "dot" com He kept the lines of communication open, even sending me his phone number to chat things over and get better clarification on some points. his work is clean, and well done. He did make a small mark on the nose of the body, but I made it clear from the start that reanno was in the future and that any small blemishes were no big deal.

63VDub
05-31-2010, 05:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKo2RfTc0RU
in action

Simon
06-01-2010, 09:30 PM
That is very cool.

I do like guns with independent valve and bolt systems. I find they are less susceptible to issues caused by paint or dirt.

Are you happy with how it's performing? (it sounds a little strange in the video). I've always liked the way the Excalibur shoots. :)

63VDub
06-14-2010, 12:22 AM
Right now, I've got it performing fairly well. I was running into issues getting it to feed reliably and getting massive shootdown. After adjusting the Eye Delay and the COFF time, I have those pretty well solved. My limiting factor on speed now is the volume of air I'm pushing and the length it's traveling through the hoses. I'm working on a redesign to allow it to vent much closer to the ram, and to reduce the volume of the air needed to cycle the ram.

I checked it tonight, and I'm able to run 14 BPS on auto and still keep my visually perceived velocity.

Kahala
07-18-2010, 07:16 AM
What did all this cost you? The reason i'm asking is i have some ideas and was wondering if i should start with my papernapkin or try to get as much parts that can be modified and explain what i'd like? You can PM me if price discussion on this thread is inappropriate.

Spitlebug
07-20-2010, 03:13 PM
Paper napkin? Everything starts somewhere. Being a CAD kind of guy I use a really technical napkin before proceeding. ;)

Kahala
07-21-2010, 12:49 AM
Yeah, i see your "technicals" all over the internet(awesome stuff by the way). But since thats not me i'm talking more...mcdonalds/jack-in-the box type napkin.;)

Spitlebug
07-21-2010, 12:53 AM
I've done that before. Honestly if Alibre has a free copy of Alibre Xpress you'd be able to get into CAD for basically free. Otherwise you can do it oldschool and use some graphing paper and linear addition/subtraction of dimensions to make it all work.

Kahala
07-22-2010, 12:30 AM
...is that how far "out of knowing" i am? Linear addition/subtraction??? OH I GET IT, Napkins with lines on it right?!!! LOL;) Regardless thanks for the info. I guess thats as good a place to start as any. Would i then take it to a machinist? Will he have to cad it up then? I think that costs alot. Will the cads then belong to me? Will he take off with my ideas? How much per hour does one charge for cad drawings?

Spitlebug
07-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Thoss are things you'd have to address with the machinist. There are contract drafting services too. I am sure if you looked around that you'd find a consummate professional to help you out.

63VDub
07-24-2010, 12:32 AM
I'll keep the costs to myself, but suffice it to say, if you can afford a decent marker, you can afford to start your project. Cliff has helped me immensely in understanding how to take my idea from a CAD model and actually making it work

Kahala
07-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Thank you very much. All awesome bits of information. 63, that gave me a really good estimate without giving away too much. Thanks guys. Does anyone know off hand if Cliff is backed up with work/projects