Weight vs Aesthetics - A comparison of current markers

[L x]

This is something I discussed with a friend a while ago, that all tournament paintball markers are a trade-off or compromise between weight and aesthetics. A marker which focuses entirely on being lightweight will have very little effort or focus put into cosmetic milling, and a marker which focuses entirely on aesthetics will have little thought put into keeping the marker lightweight. All other markers can then be placed on a scale between these two extremes.

The markers position on the graph does not represent how much the marker weighs or how "good" the marker looks, as there is a lot of personal preference involved in the latter. Instead they are positioned according to how much effort or importance the marker puts into weight/aesthetics, in my opinion.

I have had this graph sketched on a bit of paper on the wall of my office for a while now, so decided to make it a little more presentable and share it.

Feel free to argue a markers position or suggest additions!

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7452/gunchart.jpg

[Simon]

This is a great topic and one I routinely run into when designing products. Not just guns though. The same concerns come with goggles and hoppers.

People say they always want lightweight, but I'm not convinced. There is definitely a trade off, and it's hard to judge what the market always wants.

With the Mini, part of it's success is the small size and weight, but what comes next? It's almost (is) too small for some people. If we want to add some new features and make it slightly larger and heavier is that a good or bad thing? Will it be seen negatively because it isn't so "mini" anymore? Would a new gun that is heavier be accepted or not?

I think the $$$ consideration we consider is the cost to manufacture. You can go lightweight and get cool aesthetics, but depending on your chosen method of manufacturing that could add significant costs.

Forging is a great way to get detail at a good price, but you limit yourself for PL milling...

An example that might skew your graph would be the manik-e-mag. For the life of me I can't find a picture right now, but the body is in the Basement tour videos. It was cool aesthetically, it's the one triangulated like a struss, and phenomenally light (in part that was possible because it kept strength from the design). It was also horrendously expensive to machine. I doubt the market place would bare the costs of that.

Another consideration is the base model of some guns. The 03 shocker comes to mind, and so does the Mini. The stock gun has so little "meat" on it, that doing anything more aesthetic with the milling typically added weight. In some cases significantly. I've sometimes designed a gun, and wondered if the base model should be made "heavier" so that a PL version later could be lighter. I tend not to worry about that anymore so much though.

Aesthetics is becoming more and more important in paintball.

Another issue with weight concerns is that there does come a point when you have to be careful about the integrity of the components.

One thing I learnt with the weight of goggles and hoppers was where that weight was in the item. By placing it closer to the point of the moment it reduces the impact and feel on the user and that can give a great result. i.e. the Vents goggles being closer to the face feel lighter than similar goggles that stand off further. Also the Prophecy having the drive system compressed down as low as possible (and actually stacked inside itself) makes the moment on the gun when it's angled less, and so the whole set up feels a lot lighter and easier to handle than some loaders (one of which is lighter) but sits a LOT higher on the gun.

[Simon]

Found some pictures...

Very light, I think very cool looking, and outrageously expensive to manufacture...

CAD rendering...

http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/purple.jpg

Body and grip frame machined. The battery pack isn't, it's just a space saver.

http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/manik-e-mag2.jpghttp://www.simonized.com/images/simons/manike-e-mag2.jpg

http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/DSCF00391.JPG

CAD and CNC toolpaths for the battery pack... this was cut similarly on the other side and front edge too!

http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/manik-battery-3rd-setup-file-o31003-and-o31004http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/manik-battery-3rd-setup-file-o31003-and-o31004.jpghttp://www.simonized.com/images/simons/manike-e-mag2.jpg

[Pump Scout]

The Simon EMag? :)

I'd agree that the Mini is too small for some, as I fall into that category. As a "proof of concept", and a platform that can be dropped into other bodies, it's perfect. Personally, I've long wished the old and cool milling would come back. I'd gladly sacrifice some of the weight savings we've seen over the last 4 years in favor of real milling, and real private label guns. "Custom" factory colors and laser graphics may be cool, and they may be accepted today, but they don't have the same character as, say, the original Empire Timmy, a Dragon, or a Ripper Cocker.

[Ri0T]

I think the problem with the Mini (I bought one just to train my son on, he'll hit the field for the first time soon so I wanted him to learn the basics at home first), is that it's not too light... the foregrip/gripframe spacing is too short. If an adaptor could be made that re-positioned the foregrip about 3/4"-1" forward, I'd bet a lot of the taller (longer arms) paintballers would go for it and give the Mini more consideration.

I, too, though would love to see more artistic milling like the Ripper Cocker. Honestly, an extra half pound doesn't mean much to me. It just makes the marker a bit more steady.

[Spitlebug]

I have found that newer markers are too small to use. My SLG is at the threshold. I also find this new "composite" stuff to be silly. The plastic feel reminds me of a Stingray II or some such other horrid Brass Eagle product.

Masks, hoho. Yeah the i4's. Rediculous and unsafe. Same with softears for JT masks. What next? Personally I'll stick with my trusty vForce Morph. I've had the same mask for nearly seven years (wit h lens changes) and the foam is still pretty good. Doesn't fog.

Alex, I'd incline to believe that it would actually look like a triangle with performance, weight and aesthetics.

[Simon]

I agree that the Graph would be more triangular, and it kind of is when you look at the $$$ section.

V-Force Morph was a great goggle, I liked the Profiler a lot too, but hated getting shot through the front mouth vents.

Here I am in a Morph...

http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/Simon-2.jpg

The guy in the back corner to the right of me is Egi from DYE. This is back when we played World Cup together. We would get a bunch of Europeans together and come play the 5 man as two teams and then join up to play the 10 man. We made the semi finals this year. Was a great event. That year was cool because I had just started consulting for NPS. They gave me a Hellfire paint hook up (it was AMAZING). Corner to corner with the X-mag shooting at 298 all the way. The judges wouldn't stop chronoing me because they couldn't believe it. The funny thing is that Egi got everyone else a Chronic paint hook up so they were all shooting green when I was shooting orange. It always made me smile seeing how many people walked off with Orange hits because there was no debating who shot them. I had a great tournament. So much fun. Other notables on that team were Alvaro the guy behind bringing Reballs to the USA and another good friend of mine.

[cockerpunk]

i happen to side very much with the weight savings vs the making it look cool. i personally am very much a function has a beauty all its own, kind of guy. that being said, i am hardly your median paintball consumer and hardly represent the paintball community as a whole.

i for instance love the JOLE cocker that had everything milled down to the bare bones, and you could see the valve chamber vs the bolt, vs the hammer stroke parts of the lower tube.

[bvdave]

You can really tell what kind of paintball someone plays by how they answer this questions. I am not a speedballer.. at all. I run a TM7 because I like the small compact size, but i would have paid twice the price for the same marker with exactly the same looks but with an aluminum or even magnesium shell for extra weight and durability, ive even been concidering making myself a one off copy of the Tm7 shells in aluminum for my own use, but just havent had the time or courage to give it a go yet lol. I have parts added on that do nothing whatsoever to performance, but they add weight (big bonus) and look cool (also a bonus) when I handle something like a invert Mini it feels like a toy or something and not something id actually wish to play paintball with, but you go to hardcore speedballers and you get the exact opposite reaction from most of them. I am also the kind of person who would sacrafice a bit of performance for the look im after, my motto is that the game is to be fun, not won.

Im also not one of those hardcore milsim guys that has to have my marker look like a real gun and whatnot eithor, I couldnt care less if it looks "real" or is based off an actual firearm, I just want a look im happy with based on reality or not, a weight im happy with and performance im happy with, hence all the useless parts on my Tm-7 and almost every other markers ive owned in the past few years :P

[coyut]

In my opinion form follows function. If it also looks great...awesome.
I don't think it is possible to create a chart as everybodys taste is just different. As an examle: On the chart most of the marker thar are suposed to look good are really on the other end if i would draw my own chart. LOL
But there is a difference between the tournament subair player that just wants the best possible tool to get the job done and the rec guy who wants to be cool as possible with spending even less money.

After all it is the consumer that defines if a product satisfies his needs and taste.

I'm pretty sure there is still a lot of air left to push on the lightest markers out today.
This how ever will also raise cost which the customer who is looking for the latest tech will have to pay for.
As of now most markers are still produced out of the same materials that have been made of for the past 10+ years.

There are always trends pushing the industry.
Around 1990-1994 there was a ultra light weight trend in the whole mountain bike community. Which lead to a fact that we used sub 2lbs suspension forks for downhill races... It was'nt a wise choice as i have felt on my body many times. The stuff was just not strong enough. As race tracks have greatly changed, today nobody argues about 6lb fork that cost the double or triple which also has a lot of different tech inside then what we used back then.
As I can't see big changes in the supair games in the near future i still believe we won't see a big change in the weight of markers.
What I can see is a greater split of product price ranges between "stock" and highend products.

I'm still waiting on a real composite mix marker with Nano Lotus finish and nano lotus coated mask lenses :cool:

[TechPB-Mike]

Wow that's a great chart. I've done something similar to this but with milsim markers. I always tell people there are some choices to be made when looking for a true "military rifle" vs something that works great for paintball.

Yea the RAP4 T68 looks like an M-16, but in a true paintball firefight you're WAY undergunned.

Yea the SP-1 doesn't look anything like a M-16, but in the woods it's one of the best shooters around.

Definitely a great tool for assisting people's decision making when it comes to choosing markers. What "looks cool" may not serve the function. It's kinda why we had to get rid of the 325 when the twins arrived LOLOLOL

[JakoDar]

That is a good chart - and it started a gread thread.

I am a fan of smaller markers due to personal reasons - I have small hands. I have a mini (purchased LAST weekend) for that reason. I do like the lightweight and that is also a bonus for me because I am getting back in shape and I am more prone to running in the game (scenario primarily) if I have a lighter load. In my erlier years I ran with heavier markers, loads of gear and all sorts of "tactical" equipment - and yes I did run with a Tippman A-5 with remote for quite a while. Nowadays I usually have a pistol (the TPX is one of the few that fit my hand), a lightweight marker or a pump. Again, this is all personal choice.

While I am more focused on function than form, it is nice to have something that pleases the eye as well.

[Raadio]

Wow that's a great chart. I've done something similar to this but with milsim markers. I always tell people there are some choices to be made when looking for a true "military rifle" vs something that works great for paintball.

Yea the RAP4 T68 looks like an M-16, but in a true paintball firefight you're WAY undergunned.

Yea the SP-1 doesn't look anything like a M-16, but in the woods it's one of the best shooters around.

Definitely a great tool for assisting people's decision making when it comes to choosing markers. What "looks cool" may not serve the function. It's kinda why we had to get rid of the 325 when the twins arrived LOLOLOL

Think we could just spray an Ego with Rhino Liner ?! :)

I'd like that MUCH better!