Making a standard thread for all Paintball Guns... "Autococker".

[Simon]

I am a believer that the fewer different barrel threads in paintball the better.

Autococker, although not a great thread in all honesty (for length of gun reasons, and unthreading reasons), has become pretty much a standard in Paintball.

Unfortunately when Budd Orr made Autococker barrels he never made a technical drawing available to everyone to specify exactly how they should be made, or how the gun's internal receiver for the barrel should be made.

This has led to many different people "having a go" at it with varied success, and unfortunately we have ended up with many different set ups hitting the market such that there has been compatibility issues in the past between what were supposedly "autococker" threaded barrel and "autococker" threaded guns.

We ran into this issue when we made the Invert Mini. The barrel was a beautiful fit to the gun, but unfortunately some aftermarket barrels didn't fit or were crazy tight because of the slip fit dimensions we set up for the inside of the guns breech.

That led us to measure every gun and barrel we could get our hands on, and come up with a set of dimensions that whilst they annoy the heck out of me from an engineering fit point of view :) ... should allow guns and barrels made to these dimensions to work with almost all aftermarket barrels and in almost all guns.

Barrel Spec
(http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/ACBARRELSPEC.PDF)
Body Spec (http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/ACBODYSPEC.PDF)

Now this isn't set in stone, and I welcome input into this.

Here I have an Excel spreadsheet of barrels and guns that we measure and the dimensions that resulted. (http://www.simonized.com/images/simons/Standard%20Barrel%20Spec.xls)

If you have any barrels or guns that aren't on the list, please add them in a post below.

Thanks

[TallerBaller]

Do you want some more barrels or markers to test?

[Ri0T]

Marq 7 - Inside diameter - 0.885"

Deadlywind Fibur Barrel - 0.863" outside diameter, 1.251" Barrel collar length

[y0da900]

DYE Xcel barrel:

OD = .858"
Thread OD = .929"
Collar length = 1.258"
Thread = .849" from collar end
Threaded length = .285"
Barrel OD immediately at end of collar area = .975"
Bore = .689"

[Spitlebug]

Stock ICD B2K4 and 2004 BKO Barrel. I have the factory drawings for this barrel but I cannot share them for obvious reasons. These are as measured by myself. They are close enough to the factory drawings to be good. ICD advertises their barrels as 0.692 bore. Thread OD is 0.920".

http://www3.telus.net/public/bgansner/BPS-2010-02.pdf

*Edit* Holy margin rape. Simon, your forum doesn't auto size images. Fixed pictures.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_09091.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_09102.JPG

This is a bunch of "other" 'Cocker barrels I have designed. One of these is a "calibrated basic barrel" for PunkWorks. It was designed to be able to test porting and lengths and also bore back control.

http://www3.telus.net/public/bgansner/BPSCockerBarrels.zip

I'll get my Pipe Kit up soon.

This is identical to ICD's Factory 'Cocker body threading as found on the Defiant:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Autococker_Threading_-_Merlin_Extrusion.GIF

[Spitlebug]

Full (5 Backs - 1 Front) 14" PMI Evil Pipe Kit:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_09113.JPG

Picture of typical back:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_09122.JPG

This barrel kit is superior in finish to all other barrel kits I have seen/used. The barrel backs are labelled incorrectly, but works in my favor as I like small bore barrels. The correct bores are in the PDF as measured. Thread OD is 0.925".

http://www3.telus.net/public/bgansner/BPS-2010-03.pdf

IMHO, the finish - Perfect, superior, awesome, amazing and many other adjectives to describe the best. Whomever machined these barrels gets an A+ from me.

[Spitlebug]

Proto SLG UL 'Cocker Barrel:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_09131.JPG

Thread:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/100_0914.JPG

Thread OD is 0.928". PDF file is here:

http://www3.telus.net/public/bgansner/BPS-2010-04.pdf

Just a quick note, the barrel has a dust finish and the ID portion past the threading is also dust.

[bvdave]

Flasc Paintball Ac threaded barrels
OD = .859
thread OD .9285

[Spitlebug]

I am almost wondering if it would be pertinent to put my Tribal barrel in here as it's the worst barrel I have ever come across.

[Simon]

It's funny how things happen.

I have wanted to resolve this issue for a long time, now that I finally get around to doing it... KEE ends up buying JT and thus WGP... I should be able to find out what the company was working to. :)

[Spitlebug]

It's funny how things happen.

I have wanted to resolve this issue for a long time, now that I finally get around to doing it... KEE ends up buying JT and thus WGP... I should be able to find out what the company was working to. :)

Wait you guys get WGP as an extension of that? Now that is interesting. I still think 'Cockers are an excellent platform and have loads of room to go forward. Take the SR, fix the god awful frame and make a few more items internal and you have a winner.

Any idea if you will release the threading as an open source format. Maybe re-name it Universal Threading or some such thing?

[bvdave]

hehe that is quite nice how it turns out

[Simon]

Wait you guys get WGP as an extension of that? Now that is interesting. I still think 'Cockers are an excellent platform and have loads of room to go forward. Take the SR, fix the god awful frame and make a few more items internal and you have a winner.

Any idea if you will release the threading as an open source format. Maybe re-name it Universal Threading or some such thing?

I am still a big fan of having an independent valve system from the bolt. There are many advantages to that in my opinion. :)

One of the biggest issues with using the threads before was with using the WGP trademarks of Autococker and Cocker. They got quite upset about it.

I don't believe we would have the same concerns, and won't be having such issues with someone saying Autococker threads.

I'm all for saying standard or universal threads (I like universal a lot, but I don't want to mislead anyone) and transition from Autococker to that over time.


hehe that is quite nice how it turns out

The world moves in mysterious ways!

[Spitlebug]

I can't see much of a problem in a name change, particularly if it is an ASTM adopted standard.

Maybe something Like ASTM-RH-EXT-20.

The reason why everyone can use standard regs is that they are ASTM standard and also fall under CGA.

[bvdave]

I can just picture it now, Hey nice marker you got there, does it take A-5 threading? or is that Spyder threaded?

No man, this is *takes deep breath* ASTM-RH-EXT-20 threading on this puppy!

[bvdave]

oh oh I got it, Simonized threading! free publicity for the forum!

[Siress]

If it's truly a standard, it won't need a name.

With SP gone, I'd like to make the Impulse thread the standard.

[bvdave]

well itll never be a complete standard, Tippmann I am sure will always use the A5 and 98 threading, kingman will always use Spyder threading, etc etc

[Spitlebug]

Indeed. For posterity 'AutoCocker threading should be the Standard, although instead of referring to the proper designation simply put ASTM threading would suffice.

[bvdave]

so out of curiosity, are all the newer markers and barrels made by kee following the exact specifications in the PDF you gave us at this point? and if thats the case, since many of the barrels I make are made specifically for the TM series markers, do you mind if we use your pdf file for our own products?

[Simon]

Yes, all of our new guns should be following this spec.

You are very welcome to use any of the information I post up here. In fact that's the whole point of posting it up. :) To make it available to everyone, and to help people make new stuff.

I've seen some of your barrel posts and information. I'd love to know a little more. If you want to keep it more private then you can post it in the Insiders forum. If it's for public consumption and will help you with sales, please post it in the technical forums for all to see. You are welcome to post links and prices etc. too. :)

[bvdave]

very cool Thank you simon, I figured thats why you posted it but at the same time I didnt wanna just take the specs and use them without clear permission first anyways :) since most of my barrels end up on BT markers, id rather have teh design set more to the KEE specs then cocker specs, tho if this will give full compatability with everything out there.. even better and im nitpicky so if I can make something even a tenth of a percent better.. I will :) so ill run a few prototypes with the new specs and see how it works for me :D

I can post up some of the barrel tests I have completed, I have been making more of them public lately anyways, if theres anything specific youd like to see or know... let me know :)

[Simon]

I hate the fact that we have to make the breeches sloppy in order to fit the wide range of barrels on the market. It's just the safe thing to do as our customers don't understand the issue.

The original Mini and Mini barrels were a beautiful fit, but it led to issues with a few aftermarket barrels and hence the change.

If you are looking to only have your barrels on a TM series gun, then yes you could make the rear diameter larger. We have found that an o-ring on the barrel after the threads helps with keeping the barrels tight, and on some guns can actually help stop wasting air, and improve efficiency!

[bvdave]

humm, interesting about the air efficency, I didnt know a oring could help there, personally I hate orings because many people will loose them over time and id rather not be reliant on a part that often gets lost, but thats just my opinion,

id say 85% of my cocker threaded barrels end up on TM series markers, but I also have customers that put them on Drones, Mtacs etc, as scenario markers are getting more popular and more high end versions are coming out theres more cocker threaded scenario markers avaiable :) speedball markers look strange with my barrels on them because they are meant more for the milsim market however so its rare that I see one of my barrels on a speedbakk style marker.

[Nicad]

Really good to see this addressed. I have always had an issue with how the "AC" thread wandered all over the place.

On a side note, and I might just be retarded (I never count that out of the possibilities!), in the PDF spec file is the bore depth of the gun body suppose to be 1.25" instead of 1.125"?
Even if allowing for an O-ring to be sandwiched against the lip, then it should be about 0.0625" shorter, not 0.125" shorter?
Also, I always assumed the seat surface should be the outer 0.99" lip, and not the end of the barrel? Which one is correct and why? I know that seating against the outer lip makes it more difficult to minimize/eliminate the gap between the breach and barrel, but it seems to be a much stronger platform.

-Colin

[Spitlebug]

Yes, length should be 1.25" long. As to the O-ring fitment, I have no idea as I haven't ever designed a barrel to use O-rings.

[Spitlebug]

Simon, can I revise that PDF and submit it to the ASTM as a "Standard Paintball Barrel Thread"?

[Simon]

Hang for a bit, I am working on some changes to it, that should keep it compatibly, but make it different, and better :) for all...

[Spitlebug]

Excellent. Can I pursue the threading as an ASTM standard though?

[Simon]

Updated the drawings. :)